Bjj Can You Ask an Upper Belt to Roll
(@parabellum)
Famed Member
This came from a series of statements such as this one from Mark:
The only thing that I have noticed at seminars that I absolutly loathed was when it came to rolling time, and I got passed up on rolling with whom ever because a bunch of white belts and even blue belts were just walking up to the guys and saying lets roll which is extremely disrespectful IMO to do for any level. But that is just me wanting to be polite. A white or blue belt is not going to notice the sutle differences in rolling with a good brown belt from rolling with a world champion other than just to say they rolled with someone of that name. It really made me upset when that happened at a Marcelo Garcia seminar that I did and I did not get a chance to train with him but a handful of blues and whites did.
As a BJJ noob, I'd like to maybe discuss this a bit and try to understand this, so that I do not someday offend someone or act in a rude manner without meaning to.
Can some of you experienced guys maybe discuss this concept a bit?
Questions arise such as:
When is it rude to ask a higher belt to roll?
When is it normal/polite to ask a higher belt to roll?
What makes this rude?
Is this a thing that differs from school to school?
This is all very new to me, in other arts I have been in, it has been very common for low belts to request to spar with upper belts as long as the lower belts had been given the "go ahead" to begin sparring from the head instructor.
Help a noob understand this.
Muito obrigado.
Quote
Topic starter Posted : 24/02/2012 6:56 am
(@vanilla-guerrilla)
Noble Member
I would like to know too.
At my dojo, I always seek out blues, purples, and browns and ask them to roll, because I know that I will learn more from them and get better. Is that rude?
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:04 am
(@billiniraq)
Noble Member
Questions arise such as:
When is it rude to ask a higher belt to roll?
When is it normal/polite to ask a higher belt to roll?
Certainly if they are doing something else at the time: coaching , already rolling, speaking with someone, teaching ect... Other than that, I would say it's how you ask. Walking up to anyone and just saying "let's roll" is far more rude than asking if they want or have time to roll.
What makes this rude?
Obviously it's rude to interrupt someone. Always be respectful in how you ask...nothing more
Is this a thing that differs from school to school?
Seems to be. You should ask your instructor what the preferred etiquette is at your school.
I think school size makes a big difference here as well. I run a very small school (20 students, mostly white with 4 blue). As a result, I roll with as many people as possible. However, in a large school with lots of color ranks, the instructor has a larger duty. It's difficult to watch 20 groups of people training together if you're occupied by one student. That may be the reason for the situation to begin with.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:04 am
(@parabellum)
Famed Member
So yeah, obviously interrupting someone is always rude.
I was getting this sense that in some schools it would be considered rude if I said "Hey, after class sometime would you mind rolling with me for a bit?", as if the initiation should always be done by the senior rank.
If that is the case, that is cool with me, I just wanted to get a sense for how common that is.
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Topic starter Posted : 24/02/2012 7:08 am
(@bma_mat)
Illustrious Member
If I want to ask a higher belt to roll, I'll generally wait for when he's not doing anything, and then politely ask if they will show me something that I found interesting that they might have taught, used on someone else, etc.
I won't walk up to him if he's in a group talking and interrupt asking to roll.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:10 am
Questions arise such as:
When is it rude to ask a higher belt to roll?
When is it normal/polite to ask a higher belt to roll?
Certainly if they are doing something else at the time: coaching , already rolling, speaking with someone, teaching ect... Other than that, I would say it's how you ask. Walking up to anyone and just saying "let's roll" is far more rude than asking if they want or have time to roll.
What makes this rude?
Obviously it's rude to interrupt someone. Always be respectful in how you ask...nothing more
Is this a thing that differs from school to school?
Seems to be. You should ask your instructor what the preferred etiquette is at your school.
I think school size makes a big difference here as well. I run a very small school (20 students, mostly white with 4 blue). As a result, I roll with as many people as possible. However, in a large school with lots of color ranks, the instructor has a larger duty. It's difficult to watch 20 groups of people training together if you're occupied by one student. That may be the reason for the situation to begin with.
I agree....from what I understood was that you could ask anyone to roll but a black belt and if you wee to ask a higher rank you must approach with respect obviously but almost as if you are asking permission
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:11 am
(@bjjmark95)
Noble Member
I want to clarify this as it may seem a bit harsh.
It is most certainly a school specific thing. I have trained at some schools where this is a big no no. I have also trained at many more schools , like my school where I started, where this is nothing.
IMO, it is perfectly ok to ask a higher belt to roll, but like previously stated, it is all in how you ask. Also timing is a big thing. If a higher belt is coaching, talking, or rolling, then dont just walk up and interupt and ask to roll. It is really more of a courtasey thing you know? Like a common sense. Think of it like in any other situation. Would you just go up to someone and start asking them questions if they were in the middle of another conversation type thing. I personally dont care at all. I will never EVER turn down anyone from a roll. It is my own personal philosophy that my coach instilled in me. I might postpone it if someone else has already asked me, but I will always get a roll in with those who ask.
Where I think it is rude IMO is for instance at a seminar or where you have someone of substantial rank or importance come in and train with you. For instance, if you went to a Cobrinha or Marcelo Garcia or anyone really of high rank (A BB), I think it is rude to go up to them and ask lets roll. Now if you do it politly when they are clearly not training with anyone than that is perfectly acceptable. But for instance like in my case where it was a Marcelo Garcia seminar and people where waiting of much higher rank (like me) to try to get a chance to roll with him and white and blue belts just kind of take all those common sense things and just go infront of everyone and sit down and be like lets roll I think thats rude to not only Marcelo but everyone else.
So to shorten the answer... its is PERFECTLY OK to ask higher belts to roll 95% of the time. It is all on how you ask and your timing though. JUST USE COMMON SENSE! And of course there is that 5% where I just dont think its acceptable at all but those are rare 🙂
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:13 am
(@creslinz69)
Prominent Member
I think the thing to try and avoid is rolling with a high level belt (purple and up) and trying to turn it into a free private. Nothing wrong with rolling and asking for a few pointers here and there, which is something I do with everybody I roll with; but if you are going to "hog" a higher level belt for several rounds and view it as a chance for him to teach you a million new things and overhaul your game entirely, I think that's kinda rude.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:20 am
(@bma_mat)
Illustrious Member
I think the thing to try and avoid is rolling with a high level belt (purple and up) and trying to turn it into a free private. Nothing wrong with rolling and asking for a few pointers here and there, which is something I do with everybody I roll with; but if you are going to "hog" a higher level belt for several rounds and view it as a chance for him to teach you a million new things and overhaul your game entirely, I think that's kinda rude.
Truth in this.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:21 am
(@parabellum)
Famed Member
I want to clarify this as it may seem a bit harsh.
It is most certainly a school specific thing. I have trained at some schools where this is a big no no. I have also trained at many more schools , like my school where I started, where this is nothing.
IMO, it is perfectly ok to ask a higher belt to roll, but like previously stated, it is all in how you ask. Also timing is a big thing. If a higher belt is coaching, talking, or rolling, then dont just walk up and interupt and ask to roll. It is really more of a courtasey thing you know? Like a common sense. Think of it like in any other situation. Would you just go up to someone and start asking them questions if they were in the middle of another conversation type thing. I personally dont care at all. I will never EVER turn down anyone from a roll. It is my own personal philosophy that my coach instilled in me. I might postpone it if someone else has already asked me, but I will always get a roll in with those who ask.
Where I think it is rude IMO is for instance at a seminar or where you have someone of substantial rank or importance come in and train with you. For instance, if you went to a Cobrinha or Marcelo Garcia or anyone really of high rank (A BB), I think it is rude to go up to them and ask lets roll. Now if you do it politly when they are clearly not training with anyone than that is perfectly acceptable. But for instance like in my case where it was a Marcelo Garcia seminar and people where waiting of much higher rank (like me) to try to get a chance to roll with him and white and blue belts just kind of take all those common sense things and just go infront of everyone and sit down and be like lets roll I think thats rude to not only Marcelo but everyone else.
So to shorten the answer... its is PERFECTLY OK to ask higher belts to roll 95% of the time. It is all on how you ask and your timing though. JUST USE COMMON SENSE! And of course there is that 5% where I just dont think its acceptable at all but those are rare 🙂
Ok, now that all makes perfect sense, I totally understand where you are coming from here.
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Topic starter Posted : 24/02/2012 7:23 am
(@savagekitsune)
Noble Member
Agree, ask teacher and/or higher students if it's okay at your school.
I will sometimes ask higher belts to roll, but I try to not monopolize their time because I figure they would like to get some mat time with someone a little more challenging as well, so that they can work on their own game too.
I'm more likely to approach one if they're sitting on the sidelines looking idle, as opposed to talking/rolling with others.
I always make sure to THANK THEM sincerely for taking the time, although of course this is polite to do with any training partner.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:23 am
(@bjjmark95)
Noble Member
I think the thing to try and avoid is rolling with a high level belt (purple and up) and trying to turn it into a free private. Nothing wrong with rolling and asking for a few pointers here and there, which is something I do with everybody I roll with; but if you are going to "hog" a higher level belt for several rounds and view it as a chance for him to teach you a million new things and overhaul your game entirely, I think that's kinda rude.
Truth in this.
YES THIS TOOO!!!! I forgot to mention this! I have had this happen a lot too. I will ask anyone if anybody wants to come in a bit early to get some extra rolling in and I had 2 guys, a white and blue, offer to show up as I was preping for a tournament. Then the hour and a half of rolling turned in to an hour and a half private for them cuz we would stop after each thing I did and they would ask all the questions about how I did it.
Afterwards they were both like we can do this both Thursdays and Tuesdays if you want to start coming in early? I told them that would be cool I will just go ahead and start their tab and they can square up with me every 2 weeks. They laughed until they saw I was serious
I have no problem in helping people out. Not one bit! But when you know I am preping for a tournament and want to roll... then its time to roll. There is a time and place for Q&A.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:26 am
(@creslinz69)
Prominent Member
I want to clarify this as it may seem a bit harsh.
It is most certainly a school specific thing. I have trained at some schools where this is a big no no. I have also trained at many more schools , like my school where I started, where this is nothing.
IMO, it is perfectly ok to ask a higher belt to roll, but like previously stated, it is all in how you ask. Also timing is a big thing. If a higher belt is coaching, talking, or rolling, then dont just walk up and interupt and ask to roll. It is really more of a courtasey thing you know? Like a common sense. Think of it like in any other situation. Would you just go up to someone and start asking them questions if they were in the middle of another conversation type thing. I personally dont care at all. I will never EVER turn down anyone from a roll. It is my own personal philosophy that my coach instilled in me. I might postpone it if someone else has already asked me, but I will always get a roll in with those who ask.
Where I think it is rude IMO is for instance at a seminar or where you have someone of substantial rank or importance come in and train with you. For instance, if you went to a Cobrinha or Marcelo Garcia or anyone really of high rank (A BB), I think it is rude to go up to them and ask lets roll. Now if you do it politly when they are clearly not training with anyone than that is perfectly acceptable. But for instance like in my case where it was a Marcelo Garcia seminar and people where waiting of much higher rank (like me) to try to get a chance to roll with him and white and blue belts just kind of take all those common sense things and just go infront of everyone and sit down and be like lets roll I think thats rude to not only Marcelo but everyone else.
So to shorten the answer... its is PERFECTLY OK to ask higher belts to roll 95% of the time. It is all on how you ask and your timing though. JUST USE COMMON SENSE! And of course there is that 5% where I just dont think its acceptable at all but those are rare 🙂
Ok, now that all makes perfect sense, I totally understand where you are coming from here.
And this is kind of to my previous point as well, most higher belts won't turn down a lower level belt if they ask for a roll because they are a representative of their gym and BJJ in general; I think the BJJ community ultimately wants to see everybody succeed and help everybody get better. In that regard, a higher level belt will most always be willing to do what they can to help lower level belts get better, the most important skill for a lower level belt to learn is how to ask the right questions when you get a chance to train with a higher level belt. Asking the right questions is the best way to improve your game when you train with a higher level belt, being able to take away one small tip to improve your game from each roll is huge.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:31 am
(@georgetteoden)
Reputable Member
Where I think it is rude IMO is for instance at a seminar or where you have someone of substantial rank or importance come in and train with you. For instance, if you went to a Cobrinha or Marcelo Garcia or anyone really of high rank (A BB), I think it is rude to go up to them and ask lets roll. Now if you do it politly when they are clearly not training with anyone than that is perfectly acceptable. But for instance like in my case where it was a Marcelo Garcia seminar and people where waiting of much higher rank (like me) to try to get a chance to roll with him and white and blue belts just kind of take all those common sense things and just go infront of everyone and sit down and be like lets roll I think thats rude to not only Marcelo but everyone else.
Mark, I think your originally-quoted comment was pretty clearly referring to this kind of situation. I agree with you 100% on what you've already stated. Just wanted to add how sad that was, especially considering that most times (unless he has to leave at a certain hour) Marcelo will roll, roll, roll with the whole roomful and makes a point of seeking out each individual to give them some time. I did a nogi seminar with him in Dallas where sadly, his return flight had been moved up by the airline, so he only got to roll with about 60% of the attendees (mostly purples and browns I believe)... I didn't mind sitting out at all, as I could see he was effortlessly tooling some great people so I knew it would be wasted on me (a new blue.) When I trained at Marcelo's in NYC, after class he sought out all the visitors from other places and rolled with us each in turn, then went back to his usual (teammate) victims. I was honored. He's too much a gentleman to turn anyone down. Should this ever come up again, I would just park yourself in the vicinity and give whitebelts the stinkeye (nicely!) till you get a session with the master.
🙂
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:35 am
(@bma_mat)
Illustrious Member
You'd hate to know what happened at one of our seminars.
Not gonna give names, but a purple belt (not from out school), at the end of a seminar, asked the world class black belt if he is rolling. That black belt said "no". The purple belt insisted that he roll with him, since that is what he came for.
The black belt schooled him like 6 times in a very short time to teach him a lesson. Then the purple belt was like "enough...". The black belt told him "I say when it's enough", and proceeded to tap him like 3 more times.
End of story.
Thank god the purple belt was not from my academy... embarrassing though.
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Posted : 24/02/2012 7:39 am
Bjj Can You Ask an Upper Belt to Roll
Source: https://www.jiujitsuforums.com/board/jiu-jitsu-discussion/bjj-etiquette-discussion-asking-a-higher-belt-to-roll
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